Andy Hudson: North Carolina Tar Heel, international businessman, entrepreneur, recovering addict, father, husband, and enthusiastic learner.

I endeavor to end racism and intolerance in all that I do. 
I continue to attend 12-step meetings and sponsor many on their journey through the 12 steps.
Started a non-profit called Kaos Basketball to provide competitive basketball (AAU) experience to financially disadvantaged families of youth athletes.  
Continue to coach (currently 8th/9th grade).

You can reach Andy through email: ahudson@mktbuildersintl.com

Chapters

• 0:55 Journey of Self-Discovery and Growth
• 10:57 Exploring Different Perspectives on God
• 24:46 Exploring Addiction and Ego Transformation
• 36:37 Healing Through Vulnerability and Connection
• 53:03 Promoting Personal and Professional Growth

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:55

Welcome, Andy, to the Quantum Alchemist Master Podcast. It's a pleasure to have you. I'm very, very excited to have you here and to hear your story about your hero's journey, how you got to where you are today. Please go ahead, share whatever it is you feel called to share with us, with the audience today.

Speaker 2: 1:14

Good morning. Good morning, as I was preparing for this, I kept thinking. I was modeling in my brain all of the questions you were going to ask me, and I didn't prepare for that. Tell us about your hero's journey. That was I was like a prize.

Speaker 2: 1:32

So I'm not sure that it is a hero's journey. I'm not sure that it is a hero's journey. I think of it as the journey that I'm on and kind of where I am now. So I don't have much perspective because it is a first person. Audience is growing up in the rural South and you can imagine all of the things that that comes with racism and bigotry and all of the things that are associated there as well. As good, as well as the small town loving Andy Griffith aspect. You know, always feeling like that town was just a sport coat that was two sizes too small. I just had to get out and see the world. I do that. I go to college.

Speaker 2: 2:32

I stumble in my first years of college and end up in an eating disorder unit in Norfolk, virginia, struggling with anorexia.

Speaker 2: 2:47

You know, come into recovery for that.

Speaker 2: 2:52

But it was a lot like being able to put down the drink and not really do the work of recovery.

Speaker 2: 2:59

So I was able to put down the behavior, didn't do a lot of recovery, went on with life, got married, had children et cetera, and then 20 years later ran into that brick wall again and realized that I had allowed myself to become addicted again and to destroy my life and run my life into the rocks a second time, this time with pornography, with sex addiction.

Speaker 2: 3:35

And so I think that for me, the journey of having come into recovery and simply been able to put down the offending behavior without doing the internal work, I think that was a gift, in that the second time I realized I could probably put down this offending behavior and not really do the work and maybe I'll be successful, who knows? But if I do that, 20 years from now or 10 years from now, I'll be back in a different room with a different addiction, and so I think that that has really shaped my perspective and I give a lot of thanks to my creator and to the universe for giving me the blessing of addiction, of addiction, because I don't think my ears were attuned to the spiritual lessons that I needed.

Speaker 1: 4:49

I don't think I would have heard those without this gift to shape my perspective. Yeah, that's, oh sorry. Can I stop you for a moment to dive?

Speaker 2: 4:57

You can. Yeah, sorry, Can I stop you for a?

Speaker 1: 4:59

moment to dive. You can, yeah, absolutely no-transcript side, or the other perspective of this. Um, yes, a lot of times and I speak about myself um, we put things under the rug, we numb up, whatever works at that point. Whatever gets us to move through it Right, but the universe has a beautiful way of bringing it right back to you. It's like hold my beer. Hang on a minute. Yeah, yes, I say, my God is generous in that he will continue to turn up the volume on pain until.

Speaker 2: 6:07

I'm ready to listen.

Speaker 1: 6:07

Beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, can you say that one more time?

Speaker 2: 6:11

Sure, my God is very generous. He will continue to turn up the volume on pain until I'm ready to listen.

Speaker 1: 6:30

Oh man, I don't know about you, that hit me. Yes, yes, thank you, I'm sorry, continue, continue.

Speaker 2: 6:32

No, I love what you said earlier. I think when I came into recovery the first time for the eating disorder, I think I believed that the offending behavior was the problem, and I have come to believe now that that's not the problem. That's actually the solution. It's a bad solution, but it's the best solution that I could come up with. The problem is the way that I state it for myself is I am unable to live life on life's terms, so I'm looking for ways to, I think, as you said, numb out, leave the here and now, not deal with what is actually happening.

Speaker 1: 7:27

The discomfort, oh my gosh. Yeah, you know it's. For a long time myself, I was swimming against the current of life upstream. That gets very tiring. You burn out real quick and you're not gonna. I mean in my experience. I cannot speak for everyone, but I didn't last very long. Uh, trying trying to go against, against what is, and that's not without saying don't let go of your vision, of your dreams, of what you want to create. That's, it's a different. You know it's really hard. A lot of the ancient books, the Tao, and a lot of these books you hear. You know the ebb and flow of life go with the Tao, blah, blah, blah. Okay, let me just lay back on the sofa and let life run over me. That's not it. And it's really a difficult thing to explain to people unless body or you come to a certain understanding within your heart. It's very. I don't know how I would be able to explain that to others, it's a bit of a simple subject, yet it can be complex to understand, to flow with life.

Speaker 2: 8:42

I don't know how I would articulate that either, other than to say I love the word that you used discomfort. That's one that my wife and I use all the time. We can do uncomfortable things, it's okay to be uncomfortable. We can do uncomfortable things, it's okay to be uncomfortable. I think perhaps the distinction that I might make for myself has to do with clarity of why I'm doing what I'm doing. If I'm serving a higher purpose, and serving that higher purpose makes me uncomfortable, then that's okay. If I'm just trying to get a little bit of comfort for myself, trying to get that last cookie, and I'm fighting the crowd to get that last cookie, then I probably need to look in the mirror. Wow, wow, wow.

Speaker 1: 9:35

Then I probably need to look in the mirror. Wow, wow, wow, let's just. I mean, I don't mean to pause every time, but the amount of wisdom that you're bringing into the space, it's like reading all the ancient texts and trying to break it down into modern terms. It really is, in other words, through your own journey that is so heavy what you've just shared with us. Thank you, because it happened to me the same way. I was going after that cookie. I've owned and sold businesses, I've been in real estate. I was running after that carrot, that carrot that it keeps pulling away from you every time you get closer to it, until my near death. And then that carrot, it's gone. Now the carrot is always. It was never the destination, it was always the journey right For, in my opinion. So, walking in purpose, waking up in purpose, um, aligning your actions, your thoughts and everything you do with that purpose, is what gives you what gives your life meaning. I feel almost right yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 2: 10:57

I grew up in the Bible Belt, as I mentioned, and there was the religion that I grew up with.

Speaker 2: 11:09

I don't know how I came up with these ideas I'm not going to blame someone else idea that God really needed me to worship him, that somehow he had such a fragile ego that he needed my praise and my worship on a daily basis, or else, I don't know, he was going to flip out and go postal. And it wasn't until I was an adult that I came to realize several things. Number one if he really is that, if he really has an ego that is that fragile, then he's probably not the God that I want to worship. You know, if he really needs me, if I'm the guy he needs, we're in bad trouble. And so I came to believe that he asked me to do these things to help others, to serve the poor and the sick and those who are in prison and lonely. That he asked me to do those things not because he needs it, but because it's good for me. He asks me to pray not because he needs my prayers, but because it's good for me, it's nourishing for me to be in communion wow.

Speaker 1: 12:32

That is definitely a different perspective, especially coming from a religious background, and I've been through several major religions, initially, like six years ago. Well, throughout my life I was raised Catholic and in Cuba there's many different religions, and so I've explored a lot of them, which I find beauty. In absolutely all of them I find wisdom and I take what serves me, and now I see my perception and perspective of God, of course, has shifted, just like yours, and the listeners don't have to agree Whatever your God is is absolutely beautiful for you. I would like I like to focus and I say that to my family, because we have non-believers, we have people from different religions within the family and I would say, embody the qualities of god.

Speaker 1: 13:20

So what are those qualities? Right, being compassionate, patient, loving, helping others, helping the sick, all the stuff you mentioned. So to me is like being more in alignment with. I don't care what name, what face you give it, what institution you go to, if you praise or not. If you, that's fine, it's up to you. We have a lot of human conditioning going on as well and programming that it's like. To me, it's more important what's in your heart and and who are you being as a person? Right?

Speaker 1: 13:49

How are you behaving with your kids, with your partner, with your close ones? Because if you go to church and then you come back and your home is a living hell, want to look at that right.

Speaker 2: 13:57

So I have a thought question for you, and I frequently get this thought. So in the 12 steps of alcoholics, anonymous or in addiction recovery, they you know that aa model is used in a lot of recovery groups. There is talk of a higher power, and the question that I often get from others in the program is do I have to have a God? And so I have thoughts on that, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Speaker 1: 14:32

Yeah, so no, you don't have to have a God, you are God. You are God in human form. Right, god is chi, prana, life force running through all of the kingdoms, all of the dimensions, all of the life forms in the multiverse, from my near death, from working with plant medicines that's kind of my take on it. Um, so it's all of it. It's an ecosystem, um, where love is really the guiding force of the organized chaos. Um. So when we learn to tap into love, um, our whole life changes. It does. You don't have to call it anything. You don't have to call it love, you don't have to call it anything. You don't have to call it love. You don't have to call it god, you don't have to call it universe, buddha, krishna, whatever. You don't have to have a god, but it helps to have something, even if it's, if you don't want to label it, just something, something I feel that it helped me on my journey, but essentially it is yourself, it is all of us, as the entire ecosystem. You know, with death and rebirth cycles, with experiences not necessarily good or bad. As we see it, they're just experiences and learning and lessons for the soul. Good or bad, as we see it. They're just experiences and learning and lessons for the soul.

Speaker 1: 16:00

So it's really hard to comprehend that um at this level, because when you're in the eye of the storm and you're going through cancer or you're going through addiction, you're like, yeah, where is God now? Right? So, um, it takes a while. But if you speak to a lot of near death experiencers, if you speak to, um, a lot of people who've been through cancer, most people did anchor on that higher power, whatever it is for them to get them through it. Um, because you, you understand it as a lesson, just as an experience, like an enriching experience, maybe not the best experience on this meat suit, but but an experience, right, an eternal soul.

Speaker 1: 16:40

So it really doesn't even touch your core. Your essence is untouchable and infinite and eternal. So, looking at it from that perspective, you see life as the. You become the observer of your life, the witness, right. So it's a little bit different. It's a handful of answer for your question. I don't know if that helps any, because we can't force our beliefs on anyone, so it's really difficult, but it really helps to anchor to something, whatever it is. It doesn't have to be God. What about your kid? Like, maybe your kid is your reason, or maybe your pet, or maybe your mom or whatever. Whatever connects you to love, do that.

Speaker 2: 17:24

Yeah, that's I know for me. When I have people ask me that question, I frequently say I need something bigger than myself. The word, the word is not important. Whether you call it God or the universe or group wisdom is fine for me, but I think I needed something bigger than my own brain, because my brain is what got me into trouble and wrecked my life a couple of times. So if my best thinking got me into trouble, I need something better than my best thinking got me into trouble. I need something better than my best thinking you know what?

Speaker 1: 18:01

let's dive into that real quick, because I actually got from my guides a map of consciousness which I'll share with you.

Speaker 1: 18:08

Oh, I would love that yeah, absolutely, and that really kind of breaks. And there's tons of map of consciousness um around um. This one in particular, I just feel like, is very clear, it's easy to understand, it's not as complex as other maps of consciousness and it kind of breaks down from that higher power all the way through you, through yourself and your reality, because there's so many things that go into that. Right, I'm not going to share it and do a presentation here because it's going to take away from the podcast and it's not going to be uploaded and people are not going to see it. But in reality we're like a multi-layer being right, aside from being multi-dimensional literally, like we have all these archetypes, personas.

Speaker 1: 18:54

If you are familiar with Young's work, you know we're kind of complex, right, there's a lot of layers to us so, and we're only operating on 5% of our conscious brain and operating 95% on the unconscious. So whatever we're not aware of is actually what's running the programming. So that's kind of what you have to start questioning. So I think a lot of what I teach is I guide you to ask good questions. I'm not here to give you the answer, because maybe your answers are different than my answers, because your journey is different than mine, right? But I'm here to get you to ask good questions. So if I tell you there's a map of consciousness, uh-huh, so what does that mean? So what's going on in my brain, you know? And then you start kind of like pulling from that thread, right? So I'll leave it at that, but I will share it in private with you.

Speaker 2: 19:43

I love that. Thank you so much for that. Absolutely my pleasure. I love the idea of asking good questions 100% yeah, um, there was a thought that I had that I lost now, so it'll come back that's what I say to my son all the time.

Speaker 1: 20:08

I was going to come and tell you something, but it'll come back to me it'll be a Tourette's moment tonight when I bolt up in the bed you can text me.

Speaker 1: 20:22

Well, tell me, tell me more about. Okay. So you dealt with those two. What else? What else has happened? Like, was there any other wall? How'd you deal with that one? Like what you ended up doing that worked, because the idea for me is to empower others to share what has worked. You know, did you have to get into a specific program or how were you able to navigate through that?

Speaker 2: 20:47

So the way that it worked for me. 15 years ago, I was so sick and tired of myself. I didn't want to be me one more minute and I didn't want to go on one more minute, and I really, in retrospect I believe it was that I'm allergic to lying. I have an allergy to lying. If I do it, I will get sick. And so my moment of truth came when I was so sick of being me that I got down on my knees and I said God, you've got to kill me or you've got to save me.

Speaker 1: 21:40

That sounds oddly familiar. I said the same thing.

Speaker 2: 21:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:44

I said I can't, I can't wake up one more day like this.

Speaker 2: 21:47

I right, I can't do it for another minute. Kill me now or save me. And I really believe there was some magic in that. I believe that crying out in the darkness and being willing to accept what came from it was a moment of divine inspiration, if you will, if you will. So I found SAA, which is a 12-step group for those struggling with sex addiction, and I feel very blessed to have had people around me who coached me how to go kind of, one day at a time, how to take it one step at a time, how to eat the elephant one bite at a time.

Speaker 2: 22:44

You heard me mention earlier that I believe I'm allergic to lying. I think that that is a central part of my addiction is not being truthful. And for me, the top layer the layer that's obvious is saying things that are not true. But the next layer is saying things that are technically true but create a false impression. And you know, maybe the third layer is omitting to say things that I really should share. And the fourth layer is telling myself stories in a way that diminishes my own responsibility or my own part in the story or, in some cases, aggrandizes my own importance in the world.

Speaker 1: 23:42

you keep saying all these beautiful nuggets of wisdom and I don't know why I just keep literally I see you with a podcast and I see you coaching, coaching. Yeah, I don't know if that has ever crossed your and I never share this on a podcast, like telling people. I see you like blah, blah, blah. It's just weird and random, but I just I saw you so passionately speaking about it that I think it would be amazing for the world to have you and to have you as a mentor and a coach. I don't even know if that's what you do, but you can tell me later after this, what you're.

Speaker 2: 24:27

Coach basketball.

Speaker 1: 24:28

Does that help? Yes, everything helps, everything helps. Imagine the ripple effects you're doing to those kids. Everything helps. Sorry, the ripple effects you're doing to those kids. Everything helps, sorry.

Speaker 2: 24:42

That's okay. That's okay. So in my journey, you know and I worked through the 12 steps and it was a for me my experience was that it was not. How can I say this? I'm a pretty smart guy and I did well in school because I got a, you know, a giant brain this work in recovery. I had to learn that my big brain was actually an impediment, sometimes that, as the Indigo Girls said, I'll think myself into jail, you know. So I had to learn that this is a different part of me, the spirit and understanding how to connect in the world in a way that doesn't damage me and doesn't damage those around me needed a different part of me to be engaged. I was overusing one part part, and so that's really been the work for me is to learn how to take the skills that God gave me and to use them appropriately, as opposed to kind of overusing the big brain.

Speaker 2: 26:13

The vision that I have is, you know, I was kind of a lawyer with one of those big yellow legal pads taking notes and somehow I came up with the idea that if I could convince others of my argument, that somehow that made me right and what it did is, it made me a good salesperson, but it didn't make me any more right. So it's been a journey of 15 years since coming into recovery. What I have come to realize is something that you mentioned on this podcast that my addiction is not pornography. Pornography was the medicine that I took. My addiction is an inability to be uncomfortable, an inability to deal with what's in front of me, and so that's really my journey. Now is, how do I stay in the moment, how do I stay engaged? How do I do the things that will not hurt me, not hurt the world will add to the world. If we're all in life school here, how do I, how do I help others through life school at the same time as I'm making it through?

Speaker 1: 27:46

you know, I, before my, my near death, I always had a calling of service, but and it's gonna have to do with what you just mentioned in just a moment Um, but it was like more ego centered um, to be honest. And when we're smart in school, um, and we have all of these, I would say gifts, because if we were to be have to have born, be born with, like, developmental delay or something you know, it is what it is, so it's a gift. I see it as a gift. And how are you using that gift? Let's just say I wasn't using it the most appropriately. And when we come into power and it doesn't matter, it could be spiritual power, because once you have a higher understanding, or it could be power in your profession, or it could be power in your profession, or it could be power in your relationship. So how we use power is very delicate, because what I learned in my near death is that whatever harm you do to others, you're really doing it to yourself. So it's a very delicate thread there as to how we operate in the world.

Speaker 1: 29:01

When I, when I crossed over, a lot of what I had to deal with was my own guilt and shame and just myself, like judgment of myself and my actions. So it's really beautiful that there is not a person or a god that will judge you. In my personal experience, um, but it is myself. So there's nowhere to run. Even if you leave this realm that you're, you're, it's right here. Right, it's consciousness. So you got to deal with that inner work. Might as well do it here, where you're at right. Might as well find that inner peace, that inner love, that inner wisdom, that compassion, that inner compass to kind of guide you to make decisions that feel good to you without having to putting all those layers. And while in this map of consciousness I was able, when I was downloading it, I was able to tap into the collective unconscious. And a lot of what I found there was sex addiction, pedophile stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 30:07

But not judging it from that part, it is just we haven't looked at it as a, as a collective, we haven't done the work. It's not good or bad 's, just is there. And then how are we as a humanity going to deal with that right? Are we going to continue the sex trafficking? Are we going to continue abusing children like how? Is that the path forward? Is that how we see that that would lead us to a better world. I'm'm not sure, you know that doesn't sound right to me. So, really just questioning what is and how are we going to do about it? You could have decided to not do the work and gone and gone in a whole different direction, right? So how are we using our free will, our power? Right, if you're?

Speaker 1: 30:54

in a place of power. Most of the abuse comes from family, from close family parents, grandparents, you know, very close in the family. So it's looking at that and I'm not necessarily judging, because who knows how they were raised or who knows if they had abuse, they're just carrying this pattern, right. So? But if someone's coming across this podcast or someone's in a state of their life where they're bringing that unconscious pattern, making it conscious, and you're aware that you know, you always have the ego, the super ego, which is like, OK, this is right, this is not right, this is my fantasy. Should I actually carry it on? Right? So where? Where is that balance? Right? So, just questioning yourself again, good questions, questioning yourself how am I going to approach this up to how far can I take this in my mind versus what am I going to act? Actually act on you know? And is that something that I want, a pattern that I want to keep running in my unconscious or subconscious mind, or do I actually want to try to shift and change?

Speaker 1: 32:04

because a lot of times, if you live in this headspace, I feel like it's hard to make real connections like an intimacy with people it's kind of like you can't fully connect because no one's really going to fulfill that fantasy anyway, like no one's going to match it right Because it's not the common relationship. Let's just say so. I feel it's an opportunity. I see it as an opportunity for us to deal with it and to bring it to light and to not make it taboo.

Speaker 2: 32:40

Like I don't really care.

Speaker 1: 32:41

Maybe mean sex addiction, make it not taboo why it's part of our lives, right, like if we keep putting it on the rug, if we don't talk about, if there are no groups to deal with this. If there's, I mean it's, it's going to, it's going to pop up somewhere, I mean it is so, yeah well in the environment that I grew up in, I understood that alcohol was dangerous.

Speaker 2: 33:08

I understood that you know drinking and getting drunk could be like a loaded gun Right, that addiction was a possibility. I also understood that drugs were bad, but nobody ever said looking at pornography could be addictive. Nobody ever told me that. Nobody ever told me that this was a dangerous, dangerous thing that I was engaging with, and so I think you're right. I love you. Used the word ego there and I so identified with you. Said something about I had a calling to help, but it was ego centered or something like that. I so identify with that. That, for me, ego the definition that I use is I am attaching I to something that is not I.

Speaker 1: 34:11

Wow Indentation for narrow pathways.

Speaker 2: 34:17

One more time please.

Speaker 2: 34:20

The definition of ego that I use is I am attaching I to something that is not I. So it could be I am a good father, I am whatever I am. That's what the bible refers to as the devil is, and that's what is fighting my ability to truly, uh, be of help to myself and everybody else on the planet is. You know, maya angelou um had a great analogy. Oprah asked her her thoughts on what happened after she died and she said I'm like a cup of ocean water. When the cup breaks, the water will return to the ocean, and I often use that, for, for me, ego is thinking I'm the cup instead of the ocean water that's powerful.

Speaker 1: 35:39

That's the same way I view it. Yeah, it's the ebb and flow of creation, return to the source, and then again energy just changing form, right Transforming.

Speaker 2: 35:54

Right and I find that I can have a lot more compassion for others if I realize that for me, I think of it as all earth school and we're all made of the same substance. So perhaps this person is not on that lesson yet. They're on whatever lesson they're on, and it allows me to give, to have a little more compassion for them 100%. The other thing that I wanted to bring up. Do we have time to keep talking?

Speaker 1: 36:26

We have time.

Speaker 2: 36:27

I got until 9.30.

Speaker 1: 36:29

Okay, yeah, we can do 930. That's good.

Speaker 2: 36:32

I mean the conversation's good so in my mind.

Speaker 2: 36:38

I think of drugs as something that feels good now but creates damage long term. So ice cream is a great example for me, because I love ice cream. I love it, it's delicious, it feels good going down, but, boy, I'm going to feel bad later. I think of medicine as the opposite of drugs. Medicine is something that may not be pleasant in the near term but is really beneficial in the long term. So it could be exercise, it could be, and I think for me, a big part of my journey is identifying those things that are quote unquote drugs in my life. Uh, social media sitting in front of the television. Uh, doom scrolling on my phone. Um, you know eating too many oreo cookies. Um, you know that they're bringing me pleasure in the near term, but they're really making life much harder over time.

Speaker 1: 37:58

Yeah, you're just creating a huge medical bill at the end, you know, putting your health at stake, and I see that playing out with my family. So I feel like what a brave bunch of souls to come to incarnate together to teach me, I mean and they're in their own lessons too, right, but I take the teaching of that right, like to put themselves through that to learn whatever it is that they're there to learn. But they're also teaching me like, okay, you still got time to make some better choices here. Okay, whether it comes to nutrition, to exercise, to whatever it is, do it now, reap the benefits later and you could and exercise and all that stuff. For me, I feel pretty good right after doing it. So I don't feel like you have to wait so long.

Speaker 1: 38:52

Meditation, breath work, all of these things. Yoga, right, what? Going to the beach, even something so simple as that, um, maybe doing a juice cleanse, whatever works for you. Fasting for some people um, you have so much more energy, focus, clarity, like there are so many benefits to different things. You just have to find what works for you. Like, if somebody like my wife she doesn't like yoga, I love yoga, like she's, you know she likes weight training, for example. I'm not a big weight trainer but I love mobility and flow and yoga and that kind of movement. So I find what works for me, she finds what works for her. Maybe we'll have a class where we kind of mix the two and kind of compromise. So find what works for you, maybe it's just a walk after dinner, whatever, but but you're I heard this somewhere, I can't recall where, but I have never forgotten it Fix your roof before the hurricane comes.

Speaker 1: 39:51

In the middle of the hurricane you don't have time to go up to the roof and fix it. That's gone. I don't even try to. It's gone, it's gone. I love that. I love that Really. Just, it really made an you know an impact to me. Like man, I'm at a time in my life where and I've had health issues which have forced me to change my habits so fix the roof now, when you're safe, when you don't, the winds of the hurricanes are not hitting you. You can't fix it when you're going through cancer, when you're going through. I mean you could, but it's going to be much harder. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 40:31

Don't take much longer. So, yeah, I just wanted to to share that, that that we have examples everywhere, even as a society here in America the overweight, the anxiety, the depression, uh, since 2010 has gone up over 50 something percent, you know, admissions in the ER for suicide attempts has gone over 60%, so crazy, you know. Wow, yeah, so we have to start taking some radical responsibility for ourselves, for our life, for our own healing journey.

Speaker 2: 41:10

So, ms Rosita, can I throw out another idea? Yeah, the study where they put a rat in a cage and they gave it access to water, and then they gave it access to drugs, to heroin I haven't heard about that one, oh my gosh. And the rat? Can you imagine? The rat becomes addicted to heroin. And they did this experiment a number of times and the rat always becomes addicted to heroin, until a scientist came along and said we're just putting a rat in a cage. This is very depressing for the rat. This is not a normal scenario for the rat. And so he built a rat wonderland and he still offered regular food and water and heroin, but he put a bunch of rats in there. So they had community, they had engagement. What happened? The rats didn't become addicted to heroin.

Speaker 2: 42:18

And so I look at that in humanity and I heard someone say, relatively early in my recovery journey they said you know, a big part of the magic of the 12-step groups is that you come in and there's a group of people who just love you and listen to you and whatever you speak, at the end of the time you're speaking, they say thank you. You're speaking, they say thank you, that's all they say they don't offer feedback, they don't offer praise or criticism, just thank you, I heard you. And that this person said you know, that's a big part of the magic. I was resistant to that idea, by the way, when I heard it, by the way when I heard it. But I have come to since believe that human connection, just loving and connecting with another person, is, by itself, magic.

Speaker 2: 43:22

You mentioned the word intimacy earlier and my wife and I, after I began my own individual recovery journey, we joined a group for couples to recover and I heard someone in there say intimacy into me. You see, and I have to say, when I heard it it terrified me. Heard it, it terrified me. That was a horrible thing because I knew if anybody really knew me they wouldn't love me. That was the fear I lied to my wife because I thought if she knew me, there's no way she would stay with me.

Speaker 2: 44:17

And I have come to believe that that is learning how to let other people in to see me. Vulnerability Absolutely Learning how to be vulnerable and learning how to receive vulnerability from others is part of the healing of the world that I hope that we can all participate in.

Speaker 1: 44:36

Yeah, yeah, I mean that's so powerful, one sentence after the other that you're sharing. All of it is so full of wisdom and I feel a lot of people can identify with it, because it doesn't have to be sex or alcohol or drugs or whatever your addiction is. There's plenty of addiction. Maybe it's shopping, maybe it's scrolling through your phone, maybe it's caffeine. I went through caffeine addiction Really. Yeah, I was drinking two Red Bulls, two cups of coffee, and that was like maybe three years ago.

Speaker 1: 45:15

Yeah, it was one of the most difficult addictions to kind of. You know, like. I know it sounds weird and easy, but yeah it's. It was difficult for me to to let it go. So it's interesting. I of course I let it go after I started having health issues. I let go of a lot of stuff because when, when you're hospitalized and when you have a diagnosis where it's like, okay, it's either this is going to kill me or I need to make changes in my life, so you kind of make your choices right. But yeah, it applies to any addiction, all the wisdom that you're sharing. So extremely grateful to have you here. And also for couples I've been with my wife for 13 years, so of course our relationship has been through ups and downs. Right, it's like a roller coaster and it's falling in love all over again with the new person that she becomes. That I become like. Do you choose that person as she is now, without wanting?

Speaker 1: 46:16

to change her, to change that person. Um, and when you, when we started what I call the inner work in 2018, really sharing the monsters, if you want to call it that, or your shadows, and really allowing them to surface, I think it's actually beautiful. If that person is going to run or stay, I think it's. You would want to know that man. You know you don't want to stay with someone who, when your worst comes out, is going to run on you. I don't know. You may want to reconsider that Right.

Speaker 1: 46:52

worst comes out is going to run on you that I don't know. You may want to reconsider that right. So I think it's being vulnerable has. Even if it's, let's just say even if it's. Let's just put a scenario where you're with your wife and you say, hey, I have this addiction to, to this fantasy or to this sex or to this, whatever it is, and of course you can't share it with her because you you feel you know she's going to run, she's not going to love me, whatever. So what is the worst case scenario? What would happen if you did share it?

Speaker 2: 47:22

Like what would happen?

Speaker 1: 47:23

Would she run? Would she work through it with you? Would you guys be able to find help? Um, so you don't have to do it alone. It doesn't have to be your wife. Maybe it's a group of people and a program designed for that. Wherever you feel comfortable, to open up, but look for help before you give up. I know a lot of people who've committed suicide and they've left small children behind and it's very difficult for the people that stay behind.

Speaker 2: 47:54

Yeah. So just look for help I would say yes, I love that you have said a mouthful. There was a moment where I was coming to grips with my own addiction I had not shared it with my wife yet and my stepmother said she deserves to make her own decision, that by withholding information you are making the decision for her. She deserves to have full information and make the decision for herself.

Speaker 1: 48:41

Wow, that is heavy what you've just said.

Speaker 2: 48:45

Just even if we're not technically lying, withholding the information, that's a lot and that applies to anything yeah, and I'm, I'm so thankful I I do believe that because I have four children that they, my four children bought me probably six months worth of grace. Yes, but I'm so happy that she chose to stay and work through it with me, and there were many times when I would say, are you going to stay? And she would say I'm here today. That's the. That's the most I'm going to promise is I'm here today, you know? Do you know the Exodus story from the Bible?

Speaker 1: 49:35

No.

Speaker 2: 49:37

The Jews are in slavery in Egypt and Moses comes and says hey, god wants me to lead you out of slavery. And eventually he gathers them up and they go through the Red Sea and they go to the desert and they wander in the wilderness for 40 years before they get to the promised land, a land of milk and honey. And I think of recovery much in that same way. It's out of slavery, but between slavery and the promised land is the desert. And there were many Israelites who grumbled and said you brought us out here to the desert to starve At least we had food. And slavery, let's go back. Let's go back to slavery.

Speaker 2: 50:35

And so for us, in my relationship with my wife, in my own recovery, there absolutely is struggle and discomfort. It's not a straight line from slavery to the promised land and for me there absolutely was the temptation to go back. At least that's a devil that I know. But I believe that the promised land is the land of milk and honey for a reason. And the Israelites had to trust God for manna. He rained down manna one day at a time. They couldn't store it up. Very much like serenity, very much like trusting God one day at a time. I'm here today. That's the best I've got.

Speaker 1: 51:28

Oh man, oh man, did you guys, did you? If you're listening to this, does it feel peaceful to just and safe to hear these words? I hope you're really. First of all, finish the entire podcast because the amount of wisdom we both shared it has been because we've been through it ourselves and we're speaking with you guys from experience, with an open heart that hopefully one word, one phrase here can empower you to make a positive impact, a change in your life. That what you just said now and putting into stories, parables, all that stuff. There's a sweetness to that because you can apply it to any scenario of your life personal, professional, whatever it is. It applies to everything right, Even just anchoring in your roots, and that knowing right that you're always guided, always supported, even if you can't see it. So thank you for sharing that. That was deep.

Speaker 2: 52:45

Thank you. Thank you for making time and space for me to be here with you this morning. I really, really appreciate it and I love and admire the work that you're doing to make this planet better. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 52:59

Yeah, I am honored and I say the same thing to you. Is there anything else you want to leave the listeners with before we hop off, and would you tell us if you want to share what it is that you do and if you want to share where people can contact you, you could do that too. You can self promote here at the end if you want as well. Your business, whatever it is that you do, feel free. If it's something you want to share, up to you.

Speaker 2: 53:30

I do not have anything to promote. I export food to Latin America. I represent US manufacturers into Latin America, so there's no promotion. I also, in my spare time, coach, travel basketball because God gave me much less athletic ability than he gave me competitive drive, so I've got nothing to promote. If people want to contact me, they can contact me. Should I give my phone number and email.

Speaker 1: 54:08

No, we'll put an email down on the description Beautiful. Yeah, they can contact you there All right. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure for me, Andy. I have learned tons from you and I hope to continue to learn from you. Thank you so, so much.

Speaker 2: 54:24

Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you too.