Abby Havermann-Coach, Speaker & Writer

A psychotherapist turned coach, Abby Havermann is a dynamic speaker, skilled trainer and an illuminator of the unconscious self-betrayals that drive our everyday challenges.

Combining psychology, neuroscience, and ancient wisdom, she teaches you how to rewire habitual patterns of thought, emotion, and behavior to thrive instead of survive.

In this episode: Abby shares her transformative journey of overcoming shame and bankruptcy, revealing how these experiences led her to empower others through vulnerability and connection. The episode tackles the societal stigma surrounding shame and emphasizes that true change begins within, encouraging listeners to seek their own path to healing.

• Abby discusses her personal story of shame and bankruptcy
• The connection between shame, worthiness, and societal expectations
• Transforming shame into a tool for growth and empowerment
• The framework of Positive Intelligence and its impact on personal change
• The importance of community and vulnerability in healing
• Encouragement for listeners to embrace their journey toward self-discovery and acceptance

For more information about Abby's offerings:
https://www.abbyhavermann.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abby-havermann-93a915165 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abby.havermann 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abbyisworthy

Free Saboteur Assessment: https://www.abbyhavermann.com

Chapters

• 0:55 Embracing Vulnerability and Overcoming Shame
• 7:54 Embracing Transformation and Self-Discovery
• 19:10 Parental Guilt and Empowerment
• 25:43 Navigating Family Dynamics and Inner Growth
• 36:47 Inner Growth and Self-Discovery
• 47:32 Guidance and Support Offered by Abby

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:55

Hi Abby, Welcome to the Quantum Alchemist Master Podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here. How are you today?

Speaker 2: 1:01

I am great. It is such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:05

Absolutely my pleasure. So I know a little bit about you, but I want you to tell us in your own word whatever you want to share about your own journey. It could be anywhere from childhood, or maybe something that you've never shared before in a podcast it doesn't. It can be as as deeper, as shallow as you'd like, but just something maybe interesting about you, or maybe how you got to where you are today, and you can take that timeline however you like. You can take the floor and go with it.

Speaker 2: 1:36

Oh, wow, that's an open. That's an open question. We just had such a great conversation before you started recording. Yeah, you know well listen, why don't I share something I have never, ever, ever shared before? And I was listening to one of your podcasts in anticipation of this and this reminded me like, yeah, I never shared that before, but it actually came up. Someone was experiencing on LinkedIn, someone that I knew from a pod that we were in or something, and she had shared a post about having gotten taken advantage of financially. And I noticed, you know, right after the post she was sort of posting in our pod like I'm sorry if I made anybody uncomfortable, and she felt so much shame about having been taken advantage of a woman younger than me. And I texted her on the side. I said remind me to tell you about the time I went bankrupt. And I've really never shared that before, not on purpose, but I just haven't.

Speaker 2: 2:40

But many years ago I was out of my first marriage. But in my first marriage I was married to an alcoholic and an addict and we didn't have money to pay the mortgage and I was, you know, fronting everything. He had chronic pain and he had he had actually was a recovering alcoholic relapsed on pain meds because of, um uh, back injury and I was doing everything I was taking care of. Everything is so many, you know, women end up doing in that situation. And I was in private practice. My psychotherapy practice was doing well, but we had bought a house that was too expensive for us and we had all of these things to try and fix the problem. And so I got involved with someone who I don't know where I read about it or saw it, but someone who was doing real estate investing. It sounded great. We were going to fix and flip foreclosures and I was like, fabulous, all I had to do was use my credit and we would buy the houses with my credit and he would help me fix and flip them and then he would give me cash to pay the payments and then, once the thing was fixed and flipped which he would take care of everything we would both share the profits, and so this was great. And so he showed you how to scope out places and everything, and there was a whole group of us that was doing it and I found three properties that he was like, okay, yeah, that'll work, there's a good margin with that, we can do that. So I bought the houses. That'll work. There's a good margin with that, we can do that. So I bought the houses and I had about a million dollars of debt between three houses and we were going to fix and flip them and whatnot, and he was paying me and all this stuff Meanwhile get divorced.

Speaker 2: 4:32

Move on in my new relationship, which happened to be with a financial advisor who I'm still married with today, and the payment stopped coming in and my boyfriend at the time was like I don't know, this sounds a little. And I'm like no, no, no, no, no, this is the nicest guy. It's not like that. He's like I don't know. I feel like this is a weird thing. Maybe I should meet with them and we met with them and whatnot. I still don't know to this day.

Speaker 2: 4:59

Some people would still think I'm crazy.

Speaker 2: 5:01

But was this a full out scam and I just was completely scammed from the very beginning?

Speaker 2: 5:07

Maybe, or was there really good intentions, you know, but it didn't work out, I don't know. But regardless, we were going to be married and we couldn't because I had all this debt and it looked like I was going to have to file bankruptcy, which is in fact, what I did. So, yeah, so that's something that I very first started as a psychotherapist, and one of the really important things for me now, as I work on myself and with others, is this monster of shame that follows us around and it is so debilitating, and it is so destructive and it is so universal and yet the most alone experience everyone has. And so, um, that was an example of, you know, a time where I had, you know, a tremendous amount of shame about this, as were, like so many, so many other times. Right, I always people ask you know, I'm like, well, which bone crushing humiliation would you like me to speak about? You know, I mean, I could choose from many, you know wow, that's very deep and very personal.

Speaker 1: 6:24

Thank you for sharing that. Um, first of all, I'm sure a lot of people can relate and then don't have to look at it as another taboo subject, um. So thank you for your vulnerability. And in regards to shame, I feel like there are many I love young and I love many other in that same realm, but I love in general, the idea of archetypes and how they play out in our psyche, both in the unconscious, collective unconscious, and at a conscious level in our subconscious.

Speaker 1: 7:00

So I feel like you know, the tarot has 22 major arcana's, um, and I'm I'm not a big tarot, I'm just like intuitive and into the tarot, but, um, I feel like at some point in our life we walk the 22, uh, archetypes right and and different, and sometimes we mix a couple of them, and shame is big in our collective unconscious, big, big, big. It's like embedded at a subconscious, not only the collective unconscious but our personal subconscious level, which is that automatic programming just running behind, making making these autonomic decisions that we're not necessarily aware of. So thank you for bringing the monster in the room right away. What has been your, your personal experience, kind of like your journey? How did you come around to to work with shame in this way, kind of like your journey? How did you come around to work with shame in this way to see it as a teacher to dance? Yes, it is a teacher right.

Speaker 2: 8:05

I mean, and I think that you know this idea that no life happens for you not to you, which I think you know some of the work that I do now with Positive Intelligence, which is the work of Shirzad Shamim, I feel like he oh, my God, I'm doing that now. Oh, really, it's fabulous. It's fabulous and you can take it so deep. I work with people on it. It's one of the models that I bring into businesses, that I bring in individually. We'll definitely have to talk about it more. I really love it, but he says it the best, right, he? One of the reasons I really love his work is that he drills down some really complex of the things and shame is. So. This is a good conversation, because one of the things that people who are so advanced really miss is, you know, we're going for the mystical, we're going for these incredible experiences and all of this stuff, but then we open our eyes and day to day, right, the unconscious process, the autonomic process that you're referring to, is this shame and this guilt that's running, running, running, running. And then, if we don't sit down to meditation, oh, we're a horrible person, or we couldn't get through the meditation, oh, we're a horrible person and or whatever it is that we didn't do that day, or whatever and positive intelligence.

Speaker 2: 9:36

The way that they frame this is that you know there's the saboteurs and there's the sage, and the sage perspective is that everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity. And if everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity and that is the perspective that you choose to go through life with then what is there to be afraid of? What is there Right? And it's like that. So you have an experience and all of a sudden you just ask yourself well, what saboteur says this is bad, this is horrible? Sage says everything can be turned into a given opportunity. Which one do I want to choose today on this?

Speaker 1: 10:10

issue. Taking that to the mystical side, um, reminds me a lot of the non-dualistic perception of life, right, even though we we do live in in. This perceived polarity is like, if you can quiet enough to see what's underneath it, you know there is not. That duality is not there underneath all the noise, right? So then, if you are able to get to that level, um, that I call it the space between the space, that was just how I like to refer to it. Um, so when you get to that blank canvas, um, you just become the observer to see that everything is just emerging in that canvas You're just creating. It's just there.

Speaker 2: 10:58

I was literally having a conversation with my 13 year old yesterday and I was like the space between where you are and I am is where everything is happening. This is all right, and so that's the more kind of advanced stuff that a lot of people can't really wrap their heads around. They're like, ah, that's crazy, that's bullshit, you know whatever. But their heads around they're like, ah, that's crazy, that's bullshit, you know whatever. But that's kind of why I like the simplicity of this. But absolutely Right, like we are all, and it's so crazy with what the world is going through now, people are like, oh, you know, they feel so much love and you know, oh, it's, it's wonderful.

Speaker 2: 11:31

When they're like looking at their candidate for campaigning, right, it's like, okay, well, that's not love, that's united around hating someone else. How much love are you going to feel if your candidate doesn't win? Then that's conditional love, right? So this idea that right. I do a lot of work with Gert Schaaf as well, who was a mystic in the early 1900s, and, like we all as human beings, you know, we all have the same capacity for good and for evil. It's 50-50, right, 50% positive, 50% negative, 50% good, 50% bad, just like Jung used to say right, like if someone came into his office and was like they were like, oh my God, everything's amazing.

Speaker 2: 12:18

He'd be like oh something bad's going to happen, and if they're like, oh, everything's horrible, he'd be like great news, Because that's how the universe rolls right.

Speaker 1: 12:27

Yeah, the polar opposite of it's just sitting right in front of you at every moment. So it's that humility to recognize that right. You're up today or you're living this grand experience and right across from that is is the opposite of that and it's all a contrast. It's all really beautiful If you could see it as a, if you could find the, the Lotus and the mud, um, if you can go beyond that.

Speaker 1: 12:53

So tell me more about kind of how you got to the work that you do today, like how did you get from bankruptcy literally to and real estate investing? I've done real estate investing as well, by the way. Quite an interesting ride. I will say yeah. So how do you go from that to what you do today? That's completely just.

Speaker 2: 13:21

Right. Well, that was really sort of a hiatus. I mean, I do enjoy real estate, I think it's interesting, but it was more probably sort of like similar to when I got a puppy to try and save that marriage and I'm like this will work, let's have more responsibility. So I started as a psychotherapist. That's how my life began and at a very young age I mean at a very young age I was really plugged into, in some subconscious way, this idea of shame.

Speaker 2: 13:49

I remember being like seven or eight years old and telling my mother you know, dad's an alcoholic. And she, she said don't you ever talk about your father that way, you know? And I remember just being so confused all the time as a kid, as I think many of us are. You know like what? Why won't anybody just say the truth? Like what? Like what's the big deal? You know. And even my dad you know like. However, many years later, when he got sober, he's like no, I was an alcoholic. You know like, yeah, that's the truth of it, right.

Speaker 2: 14:23

But so I was always really plugged into that and I think you know, as those of us who have grown up in different areas and ways you know, there was a lot of shame involved, and so I always wanted a place where people could just show up as they were and have that shame, just be able to like stay in my office while they went off and lived their life because it's so debilitating.

Speaker 2: 14:51

Um, and so that's what I did. You know, I started a business in psychotherapy and I did that for over a decade. And then, when I went through my divorce, I actually went into business with my husband now he's a financial advisor, has his own firm, and I worked with him for about 12 years, like I want to talk to people, but not about money, and I just knew that I just was not doing what I was meant to do. And so that's when I went into coaching and I preferred that model because by that time I had learned a lot about neuroscience, I had been studying different you know, wisdom, techniques and things like that, and it just brought so much I just understood so well at a different level. You know what psychotherapy, you know where it ends and where it leaves off and how people truly change, you know, and the ability that we can change, and so so that's how I wound up, kind of doing what I, what I do now.

Speaker 1: 15:52

That's beautiful. I want to take that last part you mentioned and kind of peel the onion a little bit and shift the perspective a little. So to our listeners the fact that anyone can change. So to me has been not only learning about you know that, saying know thyself right, not only learning about you know that, saying know thyself right, that's a whole nother thing, because a lot of the times we're in survival mode, especially if you've been through trauma, especially if you are below poor rooted line or you're in, you've been erased and conditioned and programmed from a very early age to not even question your programming, like you don't have the awareness that there is anything else beyond the veil of what your experience is.

Speaker 1: 16:46

So, coming from that very, I would say, just primal experience of life, raw life experience, it is very difficult to speak to someone you can change and then they'll come up with all of these I don't want to say excuses, but all these reasons that sustain and prove their current situation, like oh no, I can't change because I'm a single mother and I have this and I have that. To that point I just want to say I come from Cuba from having nothing, zero, like literally very scarcity of food, one pair of shoes, the floor was made of dirt and when it rained, it rained inside the house. So, yes, it can be done inside the house. So, yes, it can be done. And so so many beautiful people that I've had on the podcast have had tremendous, tremendous, arduous soul evolution by the human experience being in jail, dealing with drugs, with addiction you name it abuse of many kinds, and they've been able to do it.

Speaker 1: 18:01

If you're listening to us here and you could tell us just in general from your clients, the change that you have seen in people even at their darkest time, even if they're going through a terminal illness, have faith, it can be done. You just have to be willing and open. It's just the moment that you change. You know that frequency chart where you tap into courage and then all of a sudden change, miracles begin to happen.

Speaker 1: 18:36

It's just having that courage and that openness. There has to be a different way. To me it was a tremendous amount of pain and poverty and all of these things like rock bottom, and then when you're at rock bottom, you're like, well, I need help. It has to be able to be a different way. This is not the only thing that exists and then from there, you propel yourself and you start going up or expanding right your consciousness. What have you seen? With your clients coming from very difficult situations.

Speaker 2: 19:10

Well, yeah, I mean I want to hop onto what you were saying before as well, about you know for your listeners that you know we can change from rock bottom, and that's normally when we most of us do.

Speaker 2: 19:23

I mean, for me it was a night in jail, you know, and just being like and that's what my TED talk was about, and everything was just kind of like, oh, you know, like something's got to change here. You know and I've spent the last however many years trying to change everything outside of me what if I try and change me? And I think one of the really important things for listeners to know is that your life can change. It's not just you can change, because a lot of times people are when they're in pain, they're not feeling, they're not seeing what it is inside of them that needs to change, they're not seeing the frequency that needs to change. They're seeing all the things around them that needs to change. And the most important thing that I think the world needs to wake up to and thank God there's so many more people who are waking up to this now than ever before but is that when you change, that changes the frequency and then everything around you changes.

Speaker 2: 20:19

And it's not just the frequency. When you change, your behavior changes. And when your behavior changes, then other people respond differently to you. And I love the hope that you're giving people, because I was just talking to a client yesterday. She texted me over the weekend and her son is in real pain and saying exactly those things. You know, like, oh nah, you know she's giving him all these things, try this and try that and try this and try that.

Speaker 2: 20:48

But you know, based on the work that we've done together and he's just no, that's not for me, because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and this I want people to know is a stress reaction, right? So, like, no one wants to be a victim, that is not the human experience, that's not our natural state. But when we get under stress this way that, like you said, the autonomic nervous system just takes over and we begin to view things and we think for some reason that we are special in the way that our life is so bad, it's different from anybody else, right To the point that we could listen to people who literally have been brought up in poverty and it rains inside the house, or who have had brutal, brutal, brutal, you know, assaults and rapes and all kinds of awful things happening to them and still, somehow the mind can fool someone into thinking. But I'm different because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so one of the things that is important to you, know, I mean, listen, I'm not for everyone, right, this work is not for everyone, nor is it supposed to be. Not everyone is here on this round to evolve, you know, or they're evolving in one way and not another way, right?

Speaker 2: 22:05

And so to me, what is most important is that to be curious, like you say, to be open, and this was what I said to my client. We just need to try to get a ray. We just want to crack the door open a little bit and just get a little ray of sunshine in enough that he can get curious, just enough to get curious. And there's all these different ways. We can do it, right. We can do it by. We can get him on a little low dose of medication, right, we can try that. And we could send him this book or we could send him this, whatever.

Speaker 2: 22:38

But at the end of the day, this is also about her evolution, right? We can't change the people that are around us, right? So what's the gift and the opportunity for her here, right? And so then there's a whole conversation to be had around. Listen, it's very hard to watch your kids in pain. It's very difficult, and what are the things that come up for you when that happens? Well, I guess there's a little bit of guilt and shame that I did this to him. That's an important awareness to have, because if that's running, we've got to address that, because not only is it completely false and ridiculous, because everybody signs a contract before they come here to deal with what they've got to deal with.

Speaker 1: 23:20

That's what I was going to say next.

Speaker 2: 23:21

Right, right, like, and I always say that about my own son. I have a son who has a serious neuromuscular disability and I can apply everything I know about how stressed I was during my pregnancy and say, oh well, he bathed in stress fluid and so that gene was flipped and clearly it was my fault. Except if I didn't have all that mess going on in my womb, he wouldn't have chosen it, because his soul needed to overcome. He needs well, what he needs is to be humbled in this life, which is clear, and he's definitely being humbled with his body, right.

Speaker 2: 23:55

So this whole conversation okay, let's look at this you are attributing what's happening with your child to yourself, a right and then, of course, there's fear that comes up and all of those processes that are happening for her are causing her to send things to her son. Do this, try this, try this, try that, try this, because that will help her anxiety, that will help her anxiety, that will help her fear, that will help her sadness and her pain that her child is in trouble. But when you apply psychology to it and this is how I really love using all of the things that I have at my disposal when you apply psychology to it. There is now an energy between them where she is holding the pain of this problem for him, and whenever we hold the pain of a problem for someone else, we literally take it off their lap and they don't feel it because we're feeling it. And so then we can use some techniques right and say listen, I want you to do a little meditation, I want you to wrap this pain up like a little gift and I want you to imagine you just lovingly handing it back to him and placing his lap.

Speaker 2: 25:05

And if you want to hold him and hug him from behind while he holds it, just picture yourself there so you can energetically move that. Because we want the pain of him feeling like he's going nowhere to be greater than the anxiety of doing something about it. That's the problem right now the anxiety of doing something is bigger than the anxiety of feeling this miserable and that's and that's why he's stuck. So it's kind of a long winded answer to your no, it's beautiful and that's why he's stuck. So it's kind of a long-winded answer to your-.

Speaker 1: 25:39

No, it's beautiful and it's gotten me to think a couple of things. One and speaking about from my personal experience and my family we can't save anyone that doesn't want the help, basically. So what I've learned is to step back. If they need me to go to the hospital, I will go. If they need a medication, I will prescribe it. I'm a nurse practitioner. I'll prescribe it. If they ask for something, as long as it's not violating the boundaries I have in place, I will help to the extent which they want the help. I have people in my family dealing with addiction, dealing with suicide. They know the work I do. I work a lot with addiction, suicide, trauma, et cetera. They know I'm there. I can't force them as much as it pains me literally to see them to be in my own close circle, I know there's nothing I could do. I know people listening to this may be like what do you mean? Just go talk to them, right?

Speaker 2: 26:45

right right, right right.

Speaker 1: 26:47

So it may be a little contradicting. Another thing you mentioned your son and a lot of the stuff that. So this is just my perspective. A lot of the listeners don't have to agree, and that's also beautiful. Just be curious, ask, question everything, question what I say, what should, what Abby saying? That's beautiful, Okay, If your own answers are within yourself, you don't have to listen to our answers. We're just sharing with you what we've found out in our path and that could change in a week, in a month, next year, right. So this is just as of this precise moment, In my personal opinion.

Speaker 1: 27:22

From a near-death experience I had, I was able to see a lot of the things I chose before incarnating here, A lot of like soul lessons and family as a family, soul, family blueprint. Certain things we had to work through it as a family as well. Soul, family blueprint. Certain things we had to work through it as a family as well. So we really can't carry that burden, that pain, that inner work, the work for someone else. It's for that person to go through their own alchemical process and then distill, purify and turn into gold and remember their true essence, right? However that journey may look, may look 10 years, 20 years, maybe it's your entire lifetime. Maybe it's right when you passed, that's okay, that's beautiful. You have eternity to learn this. It doesn't there's really no time or space.

Speaker 1: 28:09

But to that point I was talking to my son. He made me watch well, not made me, but he was very insistent that I watch Harry Potter. And I'm like, no, I don't want to watch Harry Potter, whatever, that's not my like, my, my thing. No, no, no, you have to watch it, you have to watch it. I watched all of the, however many series there are on on there and and then I sat him down and then, cause, I was able to see, you know, some of the parallels to life, to the ego, to um, just every the matrix, all of the stuff that we're navigating. So I was trying to sit him down and give him a different perspective of the movie.

Speaker 1: 28:47

Of course, uh, looking at the underlying message under the, under the movie, from my very limited perspective right now, Um and I was speaking to him that I was asking God in the past five years why there has been no apparent change other than inner change, right, Like I haven't moved from what I normally do, I haven't had a change in household, I haven't. Normally I used to move every two years. Of course that was because I was looking for external to fill the void Right. And then in the past, and then finally now I don't move and I'm still questioning it Right, Like why don't I move, Um?

Speaker 2: 29:26

and then, yeah, because the human mind is so funny, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 29:32

Yeah, and then it came to me in a meditation that I had to learn these seven virtues in the past five years and those seven virtues equal the seven sacred flames, and there's in a lot of writings there's 35 virtues. So far I was working on seven and I just kind of completed that cycle and I just noticed that I engage in all the polar opposites of those virtues. So right, you have your like negative and positive of the virtues and the listeners can look at it later and I noticed how I experienced the negative aspect, which is not necessarily negative, but, and then I was able to transmute it into the positive virtue. But I couldn't. I kept asking why, why, why, why, why hasn't it the needle moved past that threshold? And then and now, when I received the answer, I'm just like I don't even care if the needle moves now.

Speaker 2: 30:33

I get it.

Speaker 1: 30:34

Like it's okay, I'm at peace with the process. It's that surrendering, that letting go.

Speaker 2: 30:42

That's when things move, because there's a tremendous release of energy right there, and I think that that is one of the things that our brains want us to do always is asking why. And why is an analytical question. It engages the analytical mind, and the analytical mind has no place in this arena, in this particular arena that we're trying to talk about. When you're trying to create a new future, if you knew all the answers, that would mean it's already created Nothing. You can't create it. You can't create something that's been created. You need to think of something that's beyond your imagination, and so the why and that how is really, as so many of these teachings tell us, is none of our business in addiction. That, I think, is really important for listeners to know as well is that you mentioned.

Speaker 2: 31:39

Yes, it's heartbreaking to watch people go through addiction and all of those kinds of things. One of the things that I think people get really confused around is there's a difference between true, pure sadness for someone else's suffering and guilt or shame or anxiety, you know, or fear, right, and so a lot of times when people are crying and stuff, I will ask them you know, but tell me about these tears, tell me about what's causing the crying. And I have them stop and think like is this pure sadness that this is the state right now that we're in, or are you crying out of? Oh my God, I'm so terrible. Or oh my God, what's going?

Speaker 2: 32:25

to happen or all that kind of stuff, because that is not pure grief, that is not letting go and that is a continuation of the same unconscious process of how we treat ourselves, what our mind does. And when you talked very earlier, you said something about know thyself, and I think one of the most important things for people to understand is it's really actually impossible to know thyself. The idea that we know who we are is insane, you know, because if you know how much the brain is trying to process at any one moment and how much is happening subconsciously versus consciously, what is it?

Speaker 1: 33:05

like 4,000 versus like 64 billion? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:10

It's like like 4 million to 440 billion or something.

Speaker 1: 33:14

It's just crazy.

Speaker 2: 33:15

Yeah, it's like. So there's so much happening on a subconscious level and if you think about it, it's easy to imagine that. If you really think about, like when you go for a walk, and what you're paying attention to, and think about everything, you're not paying attention to Every breeze, every flower that's out of the corner of your eye, every tree, even right now, if you look in front of you, I'm looking at you. This is where my focus is. It's right here, but I've got a dog over here and outside is over here, and there's all of these things happening.

Speaker 2: 33:45

All of this stuff is coming into our subconscious, right, it's all coming in. We're just not putting our attention on it. So I could move my attention to my dog and then all of a sudden, my dog becomes more real than anything else and this conversation is less right. And then there's a whole other reality that's happening over there. Like I feel this way, or I am this kind of person, or I am that kind of person. There is none of that. You know, I have clients who will say, well, I can't believe this happened, I would never do that, and I go talk about that for a minute.

Speaker 2: 34:27

No, I would never, ever do that. Well, let's unpack this. In what other form have you done that? But what about last week, when you told me about? Isn't that kind of similar? And so, in order to do this work, we have to be able to be humbled, you know. We have to be able to say you know, even the part of me that maybe thinks, oh, I'm never going to be able to do anything or I'll never achieve anything. That's actually kind of a self-important part, Like why are you so special that you can't do what these other people did? Right, it's the other side of the same coin. So I wanted to get back to know thyself because back in the day I used to think that was actually possible and to really understand that our brains are way too advanced for us and we have to constantly be vigilant about who we're being in the world.

Speaker 1: 35:21

I love that and based on my personal experience and my near death experience, my knowledge is like 0.001 of the infinite, is like almost impossible for me to, at least in this incarnation, in this very reduced version, this very reduced version, with this very limited perspective and just our five senses and our conscious awareness, to even tap into the whole.

Speaker 2: 36:00

But in that moment you probably were tapping into like a much like you probably knew yourself better than you have ever known yourself, or that most of us ever will know ourselves.

Speaker 1: 36:11

And still, even at that point, I knew there was so much more. I didn't even know at that macro level. So imagine at this tiny experiential spirit, human experience we're having we're all doing the best we can have a lot of love for yourself, a lot of compassion. It's like a baby learning how to crawl and walk and I'm just crawling and walking right, just like you. I have all my stuff that I need to learn and alchemize and transmute and transcend. Um, we're all just doing it in different ways, um, and it's absolutely beautiful. So I wanted to touch on Abby. You were, you had a Ted talk. I watched it. Absolutely beautiful, very impactful. How was that experience for you? How did that kind of like come around and how was that? That's a huge impact to reach so many people and make an impact at that level.

Speaker 2: 37:09

Yeah it. You know that message is something that I'm just so passionate about, for women in particular, and I share in the Ted talk. Um, you know the on my website, the the edit. The things that were edited out are. The clips are on my website because there was some editing which makes the story a little choppy. I understand why they edited it. I didn't realize at the time. If I had, I could have told that story in a different way. That wouldn't have caused them to edit it. But I share in that TED Talk.

Speaker 2: 37:39

You know my experience of being on the floor of a jail cell and having an aha. That was like wait a minute. Yes, all these people betrayed me. So I thought I was betrayed by all of these people that put me here where I did not belong, and then what happened was I had this awakening, this moment of wait a minute. I betrayed me. It was my behavior that got me here. It was my shame, my guilt, my unworthiness, my trying to prove myself, my thinking I'm better than, or thinking I'm worse than, or just all of the ridiculousness of the autonomic nervous system and a dysregulated nervous system and the mind and believing that I am. My thoughts, you know instead of no, no, no, my thoughts are just, you know, there, and it was that awakening that started everything.

Speaker 2: 38:32

But then, years later, as I share in my TED Talk, going to a middle school assembly for my son and seeing that young girls are really having the exact same experience that I had 50 years ago, is just heartbreaking to me that we are, as a society, continuing to go on with this unconscious unworthiness program and that is driving so much of our conversation, so much of our choices in life. If I do this, then I'll be worthy. If I obtain that, then I'll be worthy. I do this, then I'll be worthy. If I obtain that, then I'll be worthy. If I get this guy to like me, then I'll be worthy.

Speaker 2: 39:21

And it's very dangerous, particularly for women, because there's this unconscious, conditioned belief that, you know, our sexuality is the only thing that makes us worthy. And that's where things get really, really scary, I think, for young girls. And it's so important, I think, for us to realize along the lines of what we women are not treated this way and that way, and we can keep teaching men to stop slapping asses and we can keep all that stuff. And I'm not saying we shouldn't, you know I'm not saying we shouldn't, but no legislation in the world is going to save a woman who feels unworthy and continues to act that way in her life. She's going to draw those experiences to her, and so that's why, you know, I titled my talk Women's Liberation is an Inside Job, Like right.

Speaker 2: 40:20

We've got to do it inside here because, if you, you can. I mean, we all know when we're in those moments where we feel horrible about ourselves, right, and someone says, no, you're great, you can do it, oh my God, it doesn't do anything because we are completely being ruled by this craziness in our minds, the craziness that is our mind. It is only when we're able to overcome that. Wait a minute, that thought does not belong in my future. That's not the truth. Let me take a moment and come up with the truth, and the truth isn't, by the way, that I'm the greatest thing in the world either. That's not the truth either. The truth is that I am a human soul. I am my essence right. I am made in the light of God.

Speaker 1: 41:06

You know, I repeat something similar to that when I walk my dog, like different mantras and different things. It's the first thing I do in the morning, just rewiring my subconscious mind.

Speaker 2: 41:15

Yes, yes, Right, and it's not something that's one and done. I love one of the things I was sharing with you before we started that I love about your podcast is the humility with which you approach it all Right and and how really out there you are with like look, we're not, I'm not evolved. That doesn't happen. Right Like you have, we have this wealth of information. Right Like, we know a lot, we've studied a lot, We've we've helped people become very successful, We've had our successes. It doesn't mean anything, it doesn't mean crap in the. We still wake up some days and we got to do all kinds of shit to overcome the body which wants to say you're nothing, you haven't done this, you haven't done that. Whatever, whatever our programming is Right.

Speaker 1: 42:04

It's funny you mentioned this because, as I was telling you before we got on, I was doing these advanced breathwork certifications and while I was doing it, one of the things we spend a lot of time doing was meditating with the flame. And in this meditation with the flame, I kept getting downloads and visions. I kept getting downloads and visions and one of the main ones was which I wasn't very happy to hear, was you are nothing, you are nothing, you come from nothing. You are nothing, you come from nothing, and that, to the ego, is like the ego doesn't want to hear that, but it's actually great news, right, yeah?

Speaker 1: 42:52

and then I said you know what? I have to peel the onion of this because it's so heavy to my ego, right? And I, I meditated, meditated on that and meditated on that, and then I showed you the book that I shared with you. The last 10 pages of that book was the confirmation I needed of you are nothing, nothing and everything at the same time.

Speaker 2: 43:18

Exactly Nothing and everything at the same time.

Speaker 1: 43:22

No beginning, no end, right that oras boras, of the snake eating the tail, and it's very different and may click for some of us at some, and then I can revisit this next year and have a completely different understanding of this.

Speaker 2: 43:37

Right, and hopefully we will right. If we didn't, we wouldn't be evolving. Yeah, who wants to stay the same? Like it's great news when we can look at something and say, oh God, I learned so much. I thought I knew it all back then, but it actually today. I'm looking at it this way, right, like you know, I love that Cause I.

Speaker 1: 43:55

I, when I walk with, when I walk with my wife, I talk to her about, like um, I don't know, certain things we want to accomplish, and I tell her, oh, now we're definitely ready. I know, now we're ready, right. And then, like five years after that, I said do you remember when we used to say we were ready and we were like in pampers, like there was? No way we were ever going to be ready for that. So I don't know. It's just. It's funny how we look at things.

Speaker 2: 44:25

And, at the same time, right, it's like then. But then there's those times where it's like, well, sometimes you need to take the step before you're ready. Right, If we wait forever to be ready, nothing will happen. So I mean, at the end of the day, it's like, can we just have compassion for where we are and what we're doing and can we keep moving forward? Can we keep taking that, that step forward, you know, can we keep being open to new information and and just gosh, you know, can we just love ourselves? Can we just, you know, have compassion, Cause this is it's hard, it's really hard being a human being.

Speaker 1: 44:58

Wow, that's. I think that's. That's kind of beautiful. To kind of wrap it up kind of towards the end. I always like to say if there's any messages, and also, what are some of the you know, the offerings you have some of the offerings you have, how can people work with you? Is it one-on-one, Is it groups? Do you have several things that people can reach out and where people can find you as well?

Speaker 2: 45:22

Yes, yes, I keep a small coaching caseload of individual clients so I can be found on my website to reach out for that. I do groups. I wrap a couple of different groups around the positive intelligence work seven weeks to serenity for women and mental fitness for men. I am writing a course which I'm really excited about, and so that will be upcoming, which will be a combination of video and then live sessions, and then I have a women's, a young women's group right now that has openings, and right now we're doing a book study which is really fun, but it's, I would say, 37 and under. You know, 40 and under is that group which is also. You can also find me at my website for that. So, uh, if you want to take um a free assessment for your saboteurs, you can go to let's connectabbyhavermancom, and my website is wwwabbyhavermancom. Abbyhavermancom.

Speaker 1: 46:31

Beautiful. Thank you, abby, for being here, for your nuggets of wisdom, your words, and your story has resonated with me personally so deeply. I just see such a beautiful mirror of things I'm going through and the things that you've already gone through. I just want to let everybody know because sometimes, when we have been doing the work for a while whatever the work entails for you whether it's spiritual or physical or however you're approaching it, or 360, we also need help. We also need someone to hold our hand. We also need help. We also need someone to hold our hand. We also need coaches. We also need another perspective. I'm just going to leave it at that because I don't want to get too, but I've been humbled enough times to know that we all need someone.

Speaker 2: 47:32

I always say get a guide, just take in. Always say get a guide, just take in new information, get a guide. I rarely in my life have gone without a guide.

Speaker 1: 47:42

Yeah, so you have Abby here in human form as a guide. Reach out to her, take advantage of what she offers, of the beautiful wisdom and energy and experience that she brings into the space. Um, she's basically been there, done that and still doing the work every single day. Um, so, if it resonated with you, reach out to her. Um, and take advantage of the free offering that we're going to list below as well, so that you can just have a chat and see if it works. Okay, we love you. Thank you, abby, for being here.

Speaker 2: 48:17

Oh my gosh. Thank you, rosalina, thank you for doing this, this podcast, it's, it's really great.

Speaker 1: 48:23

Thank you.